From nobody Mon Jan  4 19:26:58 2010
Return-path: <jari.aalto@cante.net>
Envelope-to: jari.aalto@cante.net
Delivery-date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:04:41 +0200
Received: from [192.168.1.7] (helo=jondo.cante.net)
        by picasso.cante.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
        (envelope-from <jari.aalto@cante.net>)
        id 1NRgzZ-0007cy-5c; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:04:41 +0200
Received: from root by jondo.cante.net with local (Exim 4.71)
        (envelope-from <jari.aalto@cante.net>)
        id 1NRgzZ-0008A6-L0; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:04:41 +0200
From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
To: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
Subject: miwm Window Manager: your copyright and license
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 09:04:41 +0200
Message-ID: <hbr2ic52.fsf@jondo.cante.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 192.168.1.7
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jari.aalto@cante.net
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on picasso.cante.net); SAEximRunCond expanded to false

Hi,

I'm preparing to package miwm for Debian:

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/miwm

The sources of the "E*" files read:

    EKeyValueParser.cc:   Author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EPathFinder.cc: ** Copyright (C) 2002 stephan beal (stephan@wanderinghorse.net).
    EPropertyList.cc:   author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EShellProcess.cc: <<"Please contact the maintainer of this code with an example of how you're using it (stephan@wanderinghorse.net), "
    ESimpleCLParser.cc:// Copyright (C) 2002, stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    # NONE EStdStringTokenizer.cc
    # NONE EStringList.cc
    # NONE EStringTokenizer.cc
    EKeyValueParser.h:   Author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EPathFinder.h: ** Author: stephan beal (stephan@wanderinghorse.net).
    EPropertyList.h:   author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EShellProcess.h:   Author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    ESimpleCLParser.h:           Copyright (C) 2002, stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EStdStringTokenizer.h:           Author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EStringList.h:Author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
    EStringTokenizer.h://    Copyright (C) 2000-2003 stephan@wanderinghorse.net

As "Public Domain" is not really a license:

    "Why the Public Domain Isn't a License" by Open Source attorney Lawrence Rosen.
    http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6225

I'd like to ask for clarification.

1) some of the files marked "NONE" lack the author and license. Would
you confirm that the above "# NONE E*" files are also written by you?

    You can read the source code at:
    http://miwm.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/miwm/miwm/miwm/

2) As the miwm itself (other files) is released under GPL, would you
give your permission to relicense all of the "E*" files (including those
marked "Public Domain") under GPL as well as in:

 "You can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU
 General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;
 either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
 See <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>."

Thank you,
Jari

From nobody Mon Jan  4 19:27:03 2010
Return-path: <sgbeal@googlemail.com>
Envelope-to: jari.aalto@cante.net
Delivery-date: Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:14:13 +0200
Received: from mxout-067-iad.mailhop.org ([216.146.32.67] helo=mx1.mailhop.org)
        by picasso.cante.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
        (envelope-from <sgbeal@googlemail.com>)
        id 1NRnRK-0000Tt-14
        for jari.aalto@cante.net; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:58:02 +0200
X-Mail-Handler: MailHop by DynDNS
X-Originating-IP: 72.14.220.155
Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com (fg-out-1718.google.com [72.14.220.155])
        by mx1.mailhop.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 537228339F1
        for <jari.aalto@cante.net>; Mon,  4 Jan 2010 13:57:41 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so6620633fga.7
        for <jari.aalto@cante.net>; Mon, 04 Jan 2010 05:57:40 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlemail.com; s=gamma;
        h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to
         :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to
         :content-type;
        bh=1lLz3V3efu1x96oR+8ZjlqrV5sFpM3JDFkESNQUo8wg=;
        b=hqff6LFdInKDKVgFVx/mIEYfu68Q6jO6pq6kol6EbzDGiB/HHS8VaJdyInuQESVKGn
         3psJDMc+lOxeNfROHE4OA3FkDVVnsw2JW7CC287xGNK3sCWypxbMgRoi+Sl2ZJCWRS9m
         kEPh7+xzxkF5TC6JyDCmBOg81eIj7RcvWNAGM=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlemail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date
         :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type;
        b=fWBI1T2BiGxOFcytCsV9pDDIr8Fu8+JusG55PssU83unqbgOC6sUtpvyoYQ9CQpqm1
         ek+Aa+/5Cz/LxrMd0qmeU68PSqOhBYa0gCuYbp9xDrTsVr9a4r6fnDB312GISIAkiFQ0
         qWlWZlBnV87YktooQifGwrlKQFBI9zo8kRtik=
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: sgbeal@googlemail.com
Received: by 10.102.246.9 with SMTP id t9mr717459muh.109.1262613459805; Mon,
        04 Jan 2010 05:57:39 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <hbr2ic52.fsf@jondo.cante.net>
References: <hbr2ic52.fsf@jondo.cante.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 14:57:39 +0100
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4a8f02e4a5acd47f
Message-ID: <6ac046011001040557n3e214197gbf617e87460aa53c@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stephan Beal <stephan@wanderinghorse.net>
To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364c7231c2a700047c571acf
X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.146.32.67
X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: sgbeal@googlemail.com
X-Spam-Flag: YES
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.5 (2008-06-10) on picasso.cante.net
X-Spam-Level: ******
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=6.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE,
        MY_BODY_BASE64,MY_BODY_DSN_BASE64,MY_BODY_FOR_YOU,MY_BODY_W_LONGEST,
        MY_BODY_W_ORDER,SPF_NEUTRAL,TW_IW autolearn=no version=3.2.5
Subject: Re: miwm Window Manager: your copyright and license
X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:09:26 +0000)
X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on picasso.cante.net)

--0016364c7231c2a700047c571acf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@cante.net> wrote:

> I'm preparing to package miwm for Debian:
>
>    http://sourceforge.net/projects/miwm
>

Hi! i wasn't aware that miwm was still actively maintained. i haven't
personally touched it in many years.

>    EKeyValueParser.cc:   Author: stephan@wanderinghorse.net
>    EPathFinder.cc: ** Copyright (C) 2002 stephan beal (
> stephan@wanderinghorse.net).
> ...   EStringTokenizer.h://    Copyright (C) 2000-2003
> stephan@wanderinghorse.net
>
> As "Public Domain" is not really a license:
>
>    "Why the Public Domain Isn't a License" by Open Source attorney Lawrence
> Rosen.
>    http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6225
>

It is, however, a license according to the sqlite team and its many
commercial supporters.

http://sqlite.org/copyright.html

Thus the opinion of one lawyer has little weight for me. That said, i
understand that Public Domain is not recognized in all jurisdictions
(including Germany, where i live). But neither is copyright, for that
matter, which means that there will always be jurisdictions where any given
license (including the GPL) is not recognized.

Since copyrighted works whos copyright expires then fall into the Public
Domain, public domain must be recognized in order for copyright to be valid
at all.

> I'd like to ask for clarification.
>
> 1) some of the files marked "NONE" lack the author and license. Would
> you confirm that the above "# NONE E*" files are also written by you?
>
>    You can read the source code at:
>    http://miwm.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/miwm/miwm/miwm/

The classes named E* in that source tree were either written by myself or
ported from other source trees. The two classes which i know to be
historically "interesting" vis-a-vis licensing are:

NONE EStdStringTokenizer.cc
# NONE EStringTokenizer.cc

E*StringTokenizer is based off of code which was originally GPLd as part of
KDE 1.x or 2.x (i don't remember which). At some point (around 2000? 2001?)
i recieved permission per email from the original license holders to release
it as Public Domain. i unfortunately no longer have those mails - they were
sent to an account owned by my then-employer.

> 2) As the miwm itself (other files) is released under GPL, would you
> give your permission to relicense all of the "E*" files (including those
> marked "Public Domain") under GPL as well as in:
>

Absolutely. One of the reasons for making them Public Domain is so that
clients can re-license their copies however they want to without requiring
persmission to do so. As a cancer patient, there is never a guaranty that
i'll be around to grant re-licensing request, and i release it as Public
Domain partially to avoid such problems.

>  "You can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU
>  General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;
>  either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
>  See <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>."
>

IMO, that is implicit in Public Domain, but if it needs to be explicit then
feel free to add it.

Because of the on-going confusion about whether PD really is a license or
not, what i've started doing with newer code is using license text similar
to:

"The code is released in the Public Domain except in jurisdictions which do
not recognize Public Domain property, in which case it is released under the
MIT license (which is about as close as Public Domain as a license can get).
The MIT license is compatible for use with GPL'd and commercial software."

which "should" please everyone except those living in countries which
recognize neither PD nor copyrights. (But those people are doing what they
want to with the code, anyway.)

:)

--
----- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/

--0016364c7231c2a700047c571acf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Jari Aalto <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jari.aalto@cante.net">jari.aalto@cante.n=
et</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-l=
eft: 1ex;">
I&#39;m preparing to package miwm for Debian:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://sourceforge.net/projects/miwm" target=3D"_blank">=
http://sourceforge.net/projects/miwm</a><br></blockquote><div><br>Hi! i was=
n&#39;t aware that miwm was still actively maintained. i haven&#39;t person=
ally touched it in many years.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

 =A0 =A0EKeyValueParser.cc: =A0 Author: <a href=3D"mailto:stephan@wandering=
horse.net">stephan@wanderinghorse.net</a><br>
 =A0 =A0EPathFinder.cc: ** Copyright (C) 2002 stephan beal (<a href=3D"mail=
to:stephan@wanderinghorse.net">stephan@wanderinghorse.net</a>).<br>
 ... =A0 EStringTokenizer.h:// =A0 =A0Copyright (C) 2000-2003 <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:stephan@wanderinghorse.net">stephan@wanderinghorse.net</a><br>
<br>
As &quot;Public Domain&quot; is not really a license:<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0&quot;Why the Public Domain Isn&#39;t a License&quot; by Open Sourc=
e attorney Lawrence Rosen.<br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6225" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6225</a><br></blockquote><div><br>I=
t is, however, a license according to the sqlite team and its many commerci=
al supporters.<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://sqlite.org/copyright.html">http://sqlite.org/copyrigh=
t.html</a><br><br>Thus the opinion of one lawyer has little weight for me. =
That said, i
understand that Public Domain is not recognized in all jurisdictions (inclu=
ding Germany, where i live).
But neither is copyright, for that matter, which means that there will alwa=
ys be jurisdictions where any given license (including the GPL) is not reco=
gnized.<br><br>Since copyrighted works whos copyright expires then fall int=
o the Public Domain, public domain must be recognized in order for copyrigh=
t to be valid at all.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

I&#39;d like to ask for clarification.<br>
<br>
1) some of the files marked &quot;NONE&quot; lack the author and license. W=
ould<br>
you confirm that the above &quot;# NONE E*&quot; files are also written by =
you?<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0You can read the source code at:<br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://miwm.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/miwm/miwm/miwm/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://miwm.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/miwm/miwm/miwm/</a=
></blockquote><div><br>The classes named E* in that source tree were either=
 written by myself or ported from other source trees. The two classes which=
 i know to be historically &quot;interesting&quot; vis-a-vis licensing are:=
<br>
<br> NONE EStdStringTokenizer.cc<br># NONE EStringTokenizer.cc<br><br>E*Str=
ingTokenizer is based off of code which was originally GPLd as part of KDE =
1.x or 2.x (i don&#39;t remember which). At some point (around 2000? 2001?)=
 i recieved permission per email from the original license holders to relea=
se it as Public Domain. i unfortunately no longer have those mails - they w=
ere sent to an account owned by my then-employer.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
2) As the miwm itself (other files) is released under GPL, would you<br>
give your permission to relicense all of the &quot;E*&quot; files (includin=
g those<br>
marked &quot;Public Domain&quot;) under GPL as well as in:<br></blockquote>=
<div><br>Absolutely. One of the reasons for making them Public Domain is so=
 that clients can re-license their copies however they want to without requ=
iring persmission to do so. As a cancer patient, there is never a guaranty =
that i&#39;ll be around to grant re-licensing request, and i release it as =
Public Domain partially to avoid such problems.<br>
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

=A0&quot;You can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GN=
U<br>
=A0General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;<br>
=A0either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.<=
br>
=A0See &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.gnu.org/licenses/" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//www.gnu.org/licenses/</a>&gt;.&quot;<br></blockquote><div><br>IMO, that i=
s implicit in Public Domain, but if it needs to be explicit then feel free =
to add it.<br>
<br></div></div>Because of the on-going confusion about whether PD really i=
s a license or not, what i&#39;ve started doing with newer code is using li=
cense text similar to:<br><br>&quot;The code is released in the Public Doma=
in except in jurisdictions which do not recognize Public Domain property, i=
n which case it is released under the MIT license (which is about as close =
as Public Domain as a license can get). The MIT license is compatible for u=
se with GPL&#39;d and commercial software.&quot;<br>
<br>which &quot;should&quot; please everyone except those living in countri=
es which recognize neither PD nor copyrights. (But those people are doing w=
hat they want to with the code, anyway.)<br clear=3D"all"><br>:)<br><br>-- =
<br>
----- stephan beal<br><a href=3D"http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/">h=
ttp://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/</a><br>

--0016364c7231c2a700047c571acf--
